Shrink Rap Radio #22, January 22, 2006. Snake Dreams with the Maidens
David Van Nuys, aka Dr. Dave, interviews Robin and Suzanne Maiden (transcribed from www.ShrinkRapRadio.com by Dale Hoff)
Introduction: Welcome back to Shrink Rap Radio, the planet’s premiere psychology podcast. This is your host, Dr. Dave, coming to you from the San Francisco Bay area, long recognized as a hotspot of psychological innovation. Our show revolves around interesting personalities in and around the world of psychology. Shrink Rap Radio is the show that speaks from the psychologist in me to the psychologist within you, whether you be amateur, student or professional.
Dr. Dave: If you are at all interested in dreams and what they mean, I think you’re going to find today’s topic fairly fascinating. We’re going to be talking about snake dreams. Do you ever have dreams in which snakes appear? I know I certainly have. The snake is a fairly common dream symbol but what does the symbol mean? If you are a regular listener to this show, you’ve heard me mention another podcast called insytworks, which is spelled I, N, S, Y, T, W, O, R, K, S. It’s a show that I listen to regularly and I feel a lot of kinship with it in as much as it deals with the psychology of Carl Jung. The hosts of that podcast are Robin and Suzanne Maiden and Suzanne is just finishing up a master’s degree in Depth Psychology at Pacifica Graduate Institute here in Northern California. And in one of their recent episodes, they responded to a listener who was upset by the symbol they use as their show’s logo, which happens to be a fairly well-known symbol in Jungian psychology. It’s a circular symbol depicting a snake swallowing its own tail. Their listener was concerned that by using the symbol of a snake, it somehow suggested a connotation of evil. In fact, however, the Oroboros, which is how that symbol is known, is a worldwide symbol. I was so taken with Robin and Suzanne’s discussion of snakes in general and the Oroboros in particular that I’ve taken the liberty of editing down that portion of their show so that I could replay it here with their permission of course. So let’s start off by listening to that excerpt.
Suzanne: It makes me think also of the symbolism of the Oroboros and, yes, it is the serpent in a circle consuming its tail. However, in Chinese culture, it’s the dragon. So one thing I would like to say is that this symbol is found around the world. It’s in Chinese culture, Buddhist culture, Aztec culture, Native American culture.
Robin: The Oroboros itself or the symbol of the snake?
Suzanne: No, the Oroboros itself. And Jung said that the Oroboros is actually an archetype.
Robin: Well, I guess we need to explain a little about what an archetype is.
Suzanne: Yes. So do you want to do that?
Robin: It’s like a great description of the archetype. Again, you have to look at the world through the eyes of depth psychology and that is the world of consciousness. That’s our concrete material world that we exist in everyday. That’s the world of the ego and as you move to the deeper realms of ourselves past the veil we move into our unconscious.
Suzanne: Yes.
Robin: And then beyond that, there is the collective unconscious. That’s that world where these forces, these archetypal forces exist and we can’t see them but yet we can see the representations or we can see the effects of the archetypes. So, it’s kind of like the wind. We can’t see the wind but we can see the sail fill up with the wind. And then even in the conscious world then we can see when the sailboat moves.
Suzanne: It’s the archetype now of the Oroboros and the energy of that. And what does it mean, Robin? Why have so many cultures used this symbol for thousands of years? Again, this symbol predates Christ.
Robin: Well, it is the archetype of rebirth. The snake sheds its skin and it’s that life force—it’s not evil or death or anything else—it’s the snake’s own life force that makes it shed its skin and is basically reborn.
Suzanne: Yes, it’s the power of life, isn’t it?
Robin: Right. It’s the power of life where it will be reborn. So consuming its tail— it’s that circular fashion of life.
Suzanne: It’s transformation, isn’t it?
Robin: Right. Life and death. The circle of life, moving and always moving.
Suzanne: Yes and never stagnant. And what I like about what C.G. Jung said about the Oroboros is that it represents consciousness and unconscious material being integrated to what he called then the transcendant function and, to me, that has very personal meaning. As many of you have looked at our website, five years ago, I was diagnosed with a very rare care cancer. I had a nine-centimeter sarcoma attached to the base of my spine. Now, what does all of this have to do with this current discussion about the Oroboros? Well, when I was very sick and in my treatment phase, I kept having repetitive dreams of various types about snakes. Now, I don’t like snakes. I actually really kind of abhor them. I don’t want to be around them. I don’t have any interest in handling them. But yet I had all these snake dreams and I found them very disturbing and then Robin suggested that I go into depth therapy with Barry Williams, who is world-reknowned for his work on dreams and I naturally met that with some resistence and didn’t want to invest time in that and now I think , thank goodness that I went down that path. But, what I learned was that all of these serpent dreams that I was having represented healing and, in fact, I have healed from this very deadly cancer and I’ve continued being in remission. So, for me, it’s a very profound symbolism that has brought me the gift of healing.
Robin: Oroboros is really a powerful symbol for our family and what has happened in our family.
Suzanne: Yes, yes. And, for me, it is the gift of spiritual transcendance and enlightenment and it’s taken something very painful for me, albeit my cancer, the physical and emotional pain that accompanies any catastrophic illness and transcending that and turning it into something very positive, i.e. helping others.
Robin: Well, great transition because I have a quote here— Suzanne: Great.
Robin: —from C.G. Jung and his book Man and His Symbols. “The symbol of the snake is commonly linked with transcendance because it was traditionally a creature of the underworld and thus was a mediator between one way of life and another.”
Suzanne: Very nice.
Robin: So let’s talk a little bit about the symbolism of a snake. We talked about the Oroboros specifically.
Suzanne: Yes.
Robin: But the snake, in particular, exists right at the interface between— Suzanne: —the two worlds.
Robin: —the two worlds, this world and the underworld. So it’s got its belly right up to—
Suzanne: Yeah but when you say underworld, do you mean anything evil? When somebody says underworld, I think of darkness and Satanism and all kinds of really—
Robin: And hell and evil.
Suzanne: Yeah. Abhorrent things to me.
Robin: Well, let’s look at it symbolically again with depth psychology symbolism. And really, the underworld could represent the unconscious. That’s that immaterial world where we can’t move too easily and we certainly don’t go there easily or come from there easily but yet the snake does. And that’s why it’s a powerful animal symbolically because it does. It burrows.
Suzanne: It mediates between the two worlds and it brings up this primordial energy from the depths up above that into this here and now realm.
Robin: Which I equate to consciousness and the snake will mediate down and go into the underworld, which is the unconscious, and yet it will come back and it lives right at that interface between the two worlds. That’s why it’s a powerful animal to me and yet I think through all of history I think it’s been perceived in the same way in that symbolic fashion of how it mediates between those two worlds. It’s sort of the messenger. Quote from the Practice of Dream Healing by Edward Tick, so here’s the quote. “The snake is the gods’ perfect symbol for travel between the underworld and the world of light and for achieving a balance of their powers in one being.” Suzanne: Wow.
Robin: So, that I think, if you just had that one sentence, that explains why we have the Oroboros as our symbol on our website.
Suzanne: Very profound. I would like to say that when that listener sent us the email saying, “Why do you have a symbol of evil as your logo?” To us, the Oroboros has a beautiful spiritual symbol of wholeness and integration of consciousness and unconsciousness which C.G. Jung termed the transcendant function. And it’s what we all are striving towards. It’s wholeness. It’s spiritual wholeness, psychological wholeness and physical wholeness. So for us, it is a symbol of rebirth, regeneration and transcendance. It does not have an evil connotation for us. The biblical understanding of the snake today has a negative connotation but let me just say that the serpent tempted Eve and without that, Adam and Eve would have never become conscious. They would have never gained knowledge.
Robin: The snake actually can be perceived in two ways there, the serpent in the bible.
Suzanne: As the hero or the villain.
Robin: Right. It yanked Adam and Even out of the Garden of Eden, paradise. It was wonderful. So, in a negative fashion, the snake yanked them out of paradise.
Suzanne: So how does one perceive that? Is that perceived as a good thing or a bad thing? And, I guess that we can conclude different things. I want to conclude that it actually was positive.
Robin: And allowed Adam and Eve to have consciousness, to receive consciousness and to be aware of themselves.
Suzanne: Yes.
Dr. Dave: Robin and Suzanne. Now what a great intro to Jungian ideas about snakes about the Oroboros and about Hermes. The symbolism of Hermes is closely related to that of the snake because Hermes travels between two worlds just as the snake does. Now later on in their show, Suzanne does relate a dream that she had in which Hermes plays an important role. I took the liberty of transcribing that dream and recording an audio comment for them to play on their show if they wanted to of me kind of projecting myself into the dream and more or less giving my own interpretation of it. So I thought I would share that with you here now. Suzanne, you shared a very powerful dream and I’d like to take the liberty to share with you and your listeners some of my own associations to that dream. Just so it’s fresh in everyone’s mind, I’ll replay it now.
Suzanne: I haven’t had a lot of time to process my material so here is my dream in brief. It’s only several sentences long. I am dreaming that I am newly widowed and I am a woman in my sixties. My husband has just died. I am acutely grieving and while I’m sleeping in my dream, my deceased husband comes to me and says, “If you want to heal, you must understand Hermes.” End of dream.
Robin: Wow.
Dr. Dave: Wow, indeed. What a dream. Jung distinguishes between big dreams and little dreams. In my experience, the dreamer is the one who can tell whether it is a big dream or a little dream. If this were my dream, it would definitely be a big one in terms of its import and its impact. Suzanne, I can’t begin to know all that this dream means for you but I will try to put myself in your shoes and use the “if this were my dream” approach, which leaves you free to accept or reject whatever I say. Clearly, these are my own projections but maybe some part of them will resonate with you. I’m imagining yourself to be you, to be a woman who has had a brush with cancer, embarking on a new career, with a husband whose own career may be facing significant challenges. The part of the dream that stands out most to me is the voice that says, “If you want to heal, you must understand Hermes.” Most dreams have a sense of things having been spoken, of some kind of dialogue, but without the sense of a specific quote. Jung instructs us that when we get a direct quote, such as occurs in your dream, it’s the higher self speaking or what he calls the “big self.” In my dream, I’m a widow. My husband has died. So right away, I take this dream to be about change—the death of one thing and perhaps the birth of something else. The fact that it is my husband who has died I take on several levels. On one level, my husband is facing a significant career challenge which could have an economic impact on our lives. I will need the gift of Hermes, the ability to accept change, to move through this transition. However, the image of my husband may simultaneously refer to an inner masculine aspect of my own nature that is shifting. Some masculine aspect within me may be dying or may be in need of dying, of change. At yet another level, some part of me may be worrying about the actual death of my husband, about how I could possibly make it on my own. And again another higher part of me is telling me that I need to understand and accept the inevitibility of change that Hermes represents. Hermes is a healer. I am moving into a healing profession. I need to draw upon the power, the wisdom that Hermes symbolizes in order to be effective as a healer. If this were my dream, I would ask myself, “What is it that I need to let go of and what is it that I need to nurture if the healing power of Hermes is to move through me. As the messenger god, Hermes is also the ultimate communicator, bridging worlds. If this were my dream, I would think of my desire to communicate and to heal via my podcast. I would take it as a message that I need to take full courage to speak my deepest truths in order to sustain my own healing process and to ignite it in others through the power of the spoken word. Because I’ve experience healing from cancer, and Hermes and snakes come to me in my dreams, I realize that they have a totemic significance and power in my life which I must learn to court and to embrace. Well, Suzanne, these are my projection on your dream. I don’t know whether any of these reflections will resonate for you. Because we’re all connected at some deep level though, I think there is a good chance they might. Suzanne, I hope we’ll get to hear some of your own reflections on this dream at some later time.
[music]
Dr. Dave: Well, speaking of getting Suzanne’s reaction to my interpretation of her dream, why don’t we go ahead and do that right now and speak to her live, so to speak. Now she lives in Atlanta and so I’m Skyping in to her and I can tell you right now that there’s a knob I think I didn’t twiddle the right way. Dr. Dave is still learning this technology. And so it’s a little soft on her end and a little loud on my end and I apologize for that. But let’s hear what Suzanne has to say at this point. Hi Suzanne. Welcome to Shrink Rap Radio.
Suzanne: Thank you, David. I’m so glad to be here.
Dr. Dave: Well, it’s good to have you here because I sure enjoy listening to your show. And we’ve just finished listening to part of your show on snakes and the Oroboros and then we listened to your Hermes dream and my projections about the possible meaning of the dream.
Suzanne: Right.
Dr. Dave: Yeah and I know it’s been some time since you had that dream and since you did your show and then listened to my response but I’m hoping we can get back into it.
Suzanne: Okay.
Dr. Dave: Were there any places in my reaction to your Hermes dream that clicked for you?
Suzanne: Yes, David. There were. And first I would like to say I thought you were very, very brilliant in your response in that you were very sensitive to the fact that it could possibly be your projections and I thought, “Wow. That’s very sensitive.” However, in spite of that comment, I also recognized there were parts of what you said that did really resonate with me. Specifically, I think, what resonated with me is that when you said something about the male figure who came to me—and that was my deceased husband in the dream—that maybe that was my anima and I thought, yeah—
Dr. Dave: You’re animus, the male aspect.
Suzanne: I’m sorry. Yes. My animus. Yes. Thank you. Yes and I thought, “Yes, I did not see that figure that appeared in my dream as my husband, my husband in this time-space dimension, but, yes, as part of my animus.” So, where shall we begin?
Dr. Dave: Well, just, you know, I’m wondering as you think about it as your animus and in the dream there is something, you know, you’re a widow in the dream, so something has died, something has passed away, something is changing.
Suzanne: Yes.
Where do you see that happening in your life?
Suzanne: Well, you know, I’m not completely sure yet but I do have some ideas and I’m wondering if there is a part of me that has already died because of cancer and that the other part of me now is ready to unfold and it’s a maturation process. So, part of the animus almost had to die and be sacrificed in order for the new Suzanne to emerge.
Dr. Dave: Yeah, yeah. Particularly, I’m wondering if you are aware of some attitudes that had to go, that had to die in order for this new Suzanne, this new set of attitudes to emerge.
Suzanne: Oh, yeah. That’s an excellent question, David. And where I do recognize that attitude is part of my animus energy was for me to be the taskmaster, listmaker—how shall I say it? I guess the role in my primary family that I had was that of rescuer.
Dr. Dave: Yeah.
Suzanne: And who do you think of a rescuer? That’s a very male, archetypally male image that we have, right? It’s the hero.
Dr. Dave: Right. So there was some kind of heroic aspect in yourself that needs to dim down.
Suzanne: Dim down. That’s very tender and diplomatic. Yes. That is exactly what it was because I felt as if—and I think many listeners may identify with this—is that I played a role doing a lot of caretaking and rescuing.
Dr. Dave: Right.
Suzanne: And that’s what I feel part of the impetus for my own cancer was.
Dr. Dave: And, of course, that’s typical of many of us that go into the helping field.
Suzanne: Absolutely.
Dr. Dave: Yeah.
Suzanne: Yeah, we’re very adept at doing that.
Definitely.
Suzanne: Yeah so, for me, I was unaware to the extent that I am now. Prior to me having cancer I wasn’t aware of how kind of integrated I was and how adept and just really unconscious I was at playing that role. And then when I got cancer, I was diagnosed with a very deadly cancer, a sarcoma. It was nine centimeters attached to the bottom of my spine and to my right hip and my front stomach muscle and the prognosis was very, very poor.
Dr. Dave: Let me jump in here because I’m struck that it was attached to your spine. And of course we’re talking about snakes and dreams and the spine, you know, is often symbolized by the snake as in Kundalini energy that they talk about in India.
Suzanne: Yes, yes. That’s beautiful. Yes.
Dr. Dave: So I’m just wondering if there might be some kind of tie-in there.
Suzanne: Well, I know that I shared with you before that I had so many dreams while I was in the very deepest part of my cancer treatment. I had all of these dreams that were showing me serpents and snakes. And I don’t like snakes. In my waking life, I don’t like that. I don’t like reptilian things. That’s not my gig. I don’t want to handle them or house them or have them as pets. I don’t like them and here they were just bombarding my dream life.
Dr. Dave: Why do you think that was? What do you think was going on there that these snakes kept cropping up during that period?
Suzanne: Well, what I have tried to figure out and what I think they symbolized for me was the archetype of healing. Then I can look back and even see like an Aesculapian, Aesculapian times and he was a healer and he would do dreamwork with people. But he had all of these snakes outside as kind of a symbolism and if we fast forward through time now we can see that in the modern-day caduceus.
Dr. Dave: Right.
Suzanne: The medical symbol.
Right, right. The medical symbol that has the twin—two snakes curling
around a rod.
Suzanne: Right, right and isn’t that analogous to the double helix, to our dna?
Dr. Dave: Right, right.
Suzanne: So, yeah. It’s fascinating.
Dr. Dave: It is. Now in your dream, you heard a voice. Can you replay for us what the voice said?
Suzanne: Yes. So the dream is very brief of course and I’m a sixty-year-old woman and I’m grieving over my dead husband. And my dead husband appears to me in my dream and says, “If you want to heal, you must understand Hermes.” End of dream.
Dr. Dave: Yeah and that statement, as I said when I responded to your dream— when we hear a voice in a dream, it’s something to pay particular attention to.
Suzanne: Yes. You were [unintelligible] to think that this is like a big dream.
Dr. Dave: Right, right.
Suzanne: Yeah. I agree with that. It’s a very big dream.
Dr. Dave: So what do you take that message to be—if you wish to be a healer, you need to understand Hermes?
Suzanne: Wow. I’ve thought a lot about this and the role that Hermes plays. And, of course, he was the messenger between the gods, but primarily Zeus and Zeus being the head god or the chief god. So Hermes would mediate between those two worlds between Zeus and then the mortal world and Zeus would send him as the messengers to go tell mortals and what the message typically was Hermes was supposed to communicate with the mortals—this message is for you to fulfill your destiny. And so when I read that I thought, “Oh my God, that’s me. I’m supposed to fulfill my destiny in encouraging others and to help them unveil, decloak, peal away.
Yes. And for you to—the way I’m hearing that is that for you to fulfill
that destiny that you need to be adept at moving between two worlds.
Suzanne: Yes, exactly.
Dr. Dave: Maybe, you know, what would those two worlds be for you? How would you characterize that?
Suzanne: Gosh, David, that’s a really good question. I guess, in my opinion, I guess that would be going between the Jungian world and what I know and understand and that’s very humble—my humble understanding of depth psychology—and going between that world and that of my clients and somehow integrating the two. So that I have my client sitting before me that I’m not just seeing the immediate but asking what symptoms—what, how is their symptom starting the flow?
Dr. Dave: Yeah and Hermes shuttles between the mortals, as you said, between the mortals and the gods and you’re shuttling between mundane—maybe mundane is the wrong word but—the emotional problems of this life.
Suzanne: And sometimes it is mundane.
Dr. Dave: Yeah and shuttling between this mundane world and also the world of spirit and trying to bridge those two and to bring your client into some connection with their own higher self or the world of spirit.
Suzanne: Right, but there’s part of me, David, that I want to run away from that responsibility.
Dr. Dave: Just like Jonah.
[laughter]
Suzanne: Yes, exactly. I think I might want to go hide.
Dr. Dave: Right, right.
Suzanne: Right because it feels like such an awesome responsibility and burden, somewhat of a burden but also a privilege but it really, you know, curls my toes. It scares me.
Sure. Yeah. It’s awesome. You know, I think not only of Jonah—the
biblical stuff comes to mind for me—Johah and also Saul who became Paul who was called, you know, to go out and preach and he was like, “No, No, not me. I can’t do that.”
Suzanne: Right and also when Moses was tasked, he said, “God, why me? I can’t speak. You know, I stutter. I’m a stutterer. I can’t do this.” Dr. Dave: Right.
Suzanne: And I feel some of that like, “Oh, no, no. Not me.”
Dr. Dave: But what these stories tell us is that is a common human reaction to the call of higher destiny but also what the stories tell us is you can’t get away from it. I’m afraid you’re stuck, Suzanne. You’re going to have to rise to the occasion.
[laughter]
Suzanne: I don’t want to rise to the occasion. Yes actually, Dr. Dave, in all seriousness, I agree. I do believe that’s what the dream says is that you must fulfill your destiny as Suzanne.
Dr. Dave: Right.
Suzanne: You must understand your role as a type of an archetypal image of Hermes.
Dr. Dave: Right.
Suzanne: And going between—bridging the two worlds. Can I take a deep breath now?
Dr. Dave: Yeah, right. Well you know we don’t have a lot of time today because I’ve already played a long segment from your earlier show which people may want to go and hear the whole thing at www.insytworks.com, which is spelled I, N, S, Y, T, W, O, R, K, S, dot com. And I definitely want to have you back on the show because I know you’re just finishing up a master’s thesis that has to do with selfinjurious behavior, cutting in particular. That would be a great topic for a future show.
Suzanne: Great. Thank you so much, Dr. Dave, for having me on. It’s really a privilege to be on your show and I certainly have listened to many of your podcasts and really enjoy your work. You’re very articulate and very well-spoken and that’s why I keep listening to you.
Dr. Dave: Okay. Well, likewise and I’ll keep listening to your show as well and say, “Hi.” to Robin.
Suzanne: Thank you so much.
Dr. Dave: I hope you enjoyed today’s exploration of snake dreams. I should hasten to mention that one should never assume that the meaning of a given dream symbol will be the same for everyone. That’s even the case with an archetypal symbol such as the snake. For example, in my earlier life, I used to have lots of dreams in which I somehow found myself surrounded by lots of writhing snakes crawling all over each other. Really creepy. And I would be terrified in these dreams feeling trapped. I had the strong feeling that if I tried to get away—if I tried to run or tried to jump over the snakes, I would be bitten. As I reflect back on these dreams today, I would take them to mean that I was stuck somehow in my life— frozen, afraid to move, afraid to speak out or assert myself. In another recurring sort of dream off and on in my life has been that of confronting some terribly clogged toilet brimming over with disgusting feces. Now this image strikes me as a variant on the snakepit dreams, once again speaking to me of blocked energy. Now lest you get too negative an image of Dr. Dave’s psyche based on clogged toilet dreams, let me quickly share a fragment from a more recent snake dream. I dreamt of a large snake with a beautiful colorful diamond pattern on its body. It had a large, flat, diamond-shaped head like the back of a lady’s laquered hand mirror and the underside, in fact, was a mirror. This is a very powerful image that I’m still sitting with. Where my earlier snake dream spoke to me of stuckness, this one has a mysterious spiritual feeling to it. Perhaps it is calling me to look more deeply within. I could go on and on but we’re already running long and we don’t want to delve too deeply into my psyche now, do we? The point is that for many people, dreams about snakes may indeed be about healing or transition and for others, they may have an entirely different meaning. Dreams speak to us clearly enough but in a language of metaphor. What is your dream saying to you metaphorically about the actual circumstances of your life?
Dr. Dave: This is great. I have to share with you that while putting together this show on snakes and dreams, I received a poem via email from Larry Robertson who was our guest on the topic of psychology and politics and the title of the poem that he sent is The Snakes of September. How fitting that that should arrive just as I’m working on a show about Jungian psychology and snakes. This sort of meaningful coincidence is what Jung calls synchronicity. It always feels like such a treat when these synchronicities happen. It’s a reminder that at some level everything and everybody is connected. We received email feedback from several listeners which is always a big thrill. Because today’s show is running a bit long though, I won’t read them. I did receive one from my friends Charlie and Hella. With a growing number of listeners around the globe, I find the most challenging thing is still getting friends and family to listen. Go figure. So it was great to hear from Charlie and Hella. Hella gave me two good taglines which I might use in the future. The first is “the shrink who makes you think.” I like that. Her other one was, “It’s all in your pod.” Maybe I’ll throw that in at the end of the show sometime as well. I want to acknowledge several e-mails from a newly admitted PhD in Australia who has recently earned her doctorate in forensic psychology. I’m hoping to have her on as a guest in the future. I was also very happy to receive a warm and friendly email from Iraq in response to the show on Islamic psychology with Dr. Doug Davis. Mohamad writes from Baghdad and I’ll just quote a brief portion of his email.
He [Mohamad] says: These days we face a lot of difficulties in our lives over here but, fortunately, life hasn’t stopped. We don’t get everything we want but at least we’re moving in the right direction. I’ve been lucky enough to meet and sometimes work with some very kind Americans, among which were some peace activists opposing the war. All I’ve seen from them is love and support for me and for all my people.
Dr. Dave: Well, Mohamad, that’s great to hear and please accept my sincere wishes for your continued safety and friendship and for peace in that region. It’s not too soon for me to announce a couple of upcoming workshops that I’ll be leading. I’ll be leading a weekend workshop in May at a retreat center just outside of Dublin, Ireland. The workshop will be on the hero’s journey and it will have experiential components that will get you very involved in Joseph Campbell’s model and applying it to your life. Then in September, I’ll be co-leading a weeklong workshop in Tuscany, Italy with Dr. Ron Alexander who will be a future guest on this show. That workshop will involve a mix of intensive Gestalt therapy, group work and meditation training among other things. There will also be sightseeing and recreational time. So contact me if you would like additional information about either of these. Well, once again, I love hearing from listeners. You can contact me at Shrink@ShrinkRapRadio.com. Our show notes are available at www.ShrinkRapRadio.com and we have links there to various things relating to the show. You can leave voicemail for Shrinkpod at Skype or Gizmo Project. And now we also have a phone in the U. S. where you can leave voicemail. That phone number is 206-888-2746. Stay tuned for the podsafe music selection at the end of the show. If you listen closely to the words, you’ll see that they tie in to our topic about dreaming. So that’s it for now. This is Dr. Dave saying, “It’s all in your mind.”
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